SPEAKER_01 0:00

Long three-set match, we were up like breaks of serve in the third set. Like the atmosphere was ridiculous. And I felt so bad after that match that we lost because it was totally my fault. And of course, it was like home Olympics that you're never getting that chance again.

SPEAKER_00 0:17

Today on Beyond Tennis, we're joined by Jamie Murray, a former world number one in doubles, Grand Slam champion, and a central figure in Great Britain's Davis Cup triumph in 2015. My first memory of Jamie goes back to when he was just 10 years old, playing an under-12 tournament at Bisham Abbey, already survolleying, already showing a level of composure and understanding of the game that stood out immediately. In this conversation, we trace that journey from early promise to the very top of the sport, exploring the decisions, partnerships, and defining moments that shaped a remarkable career. And as always, we stepped beyond the court into his connection with Hibernian FC, Manchester United, and a lifelong love of golf. Jamie, welcome to Beyond Tennis. Thanks for having me, Johnny. How did you like that intro? Loved it, yeah. Every word. Do you have any memory of that that that sighting ahead of you as a 10-year-old? I mean, I remember being at Bishop Abbey. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

Um I mean we were we were there a lot for uh training camps and stuff, like under 12 nationals.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

So this would have been, I think, under 12 nationals, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:18

I think I brought home brought home a title there, yeah. You brought home a lot of titles for that age, yeah. Yeah, I was decent back then. I was decent back then for sure. Um I used to love going to Bishop Abbey because it was like a great, you know, there was so much going on, there was so much other things to do. Yeah, we would play like manhunt across the across the the whole venue, you know. You know, eight, nine o'clock at night. Like it was quite uh yeah, it was good times there.

SPEAKER_00 1:46

I enjoyed that. So, well, thanks for coming on. Um we're gonna go through for beyond tennis, we're gonna go through your tennis career. Okay. Um, with a fine-tooth comb, go through all of your remarkable achievements, and then we'll do a little bit of talk about your beyond tennis, which you've given me as football and golf. So uh look forward to it. Okay. Um so yeah, take me right back to the beginning. When did you start tennis? When did you first get a racket in your hand?

SPEAKER_01 2:10

Uh so I started playing tennis when I was four, or that's what my mum and dad always taught me. Um my mum was uh she was a tennis coach at our local club. You know, we lived like basically a one-minute walk from the tennis club and the golf club. My grandparents lived, you know, basically on the second T of our of our golf club, and you know, so we were always always around their play. My mum was obviously coaching older kids, and I guess at some point like we picked up a racket and you know started to started to play.

SPEAKER_00 2:42

Started to play, yeah. Because I remember your mum being one of the national coaches for the junior teams, yeah. So for the she was the girls' captain of the 14s, I think. So I don't remember seeing her at all those tools.

SPEAKER_01 2:51

Yeah, I mean she yeah, she started out as like local coach at Dunblane Tennis Club and then was like central district coach and then national coach of Scotland. She was kind of age group captains at various times for um like GB. Um and her goal, like I think for us I mean, not just us, but other players as well, was like kind of creating opportunities that she didn't have when she wanted to try to be a full-time player. It was very difficult back then in in Scotland, and you know, she kind of made it her mission to to give us the opportunities that she didn't have, and um, you know, it's obviously a huge reason as to why we were able to have the careers that we had.

SPEAKER_00 3:30

So go go go going right back to the beginning. So those those eight years from five to ten, yeah. You said you were on you you you your house was on backing onto a golf course. Were you doing loads of different sports? Or what what yeah?

SPEAKER_01 3:41

I mean, we did I mean a lot of tennis, a lot of golf, a lot of football. Um were you a midfield general in the football as well? Uh I was like the playing like the Perlo role, you know, like quarterback.

SPEAKER_00 3:53

Okay, well, okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:54

Even at age eight, yeah. I mean Andy Andy played way more like competitively 11 aside stuff. Yeah, I I played like a lot of like five aside, seven aside, but he was more involved in like teams. Um I used to just like as I got older, play for like my dad's friends and stuff a couple of nights a week or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 4:11

Um so when we when we fast forward, like you go to I said I remember seeing as a 10-year-old, yeah. So I would have been maybe 12 or 13, and I remember a lot of the national coaches and players kind of saying to me, look out for there, there's there's a Scottish kid coming through. So I remember being kind of alerted to you, and I remember seeing you play on court four at Bisham. And as I said at the beginning, you're served volleying, attacking, yeah. So that that's when you were 10 years old. When did you first kind of realize that you like to kind of approach the net and and and be attacking? Because 10's quite young.

SPEAKER_01 4:41

Well, yeah, I think like our mum taught us about kind of playing the game as opposed to just like hitting tennis balls, and she was very much of the belief of like try to teach them as many skills as possible because then there'll be more complete players and they can deal with more situations on on the court. And like I was skillful, like I was definitely skillful as a as a younger player, and I could you know do lots of different things with the with the ball. Then I think like when I was like 12, 13, I kind of had a bad experience when I moved down to Cambridge. I was supposed to go to Bisham Abbey, yeah, to the centre of excellence, um, where all you guys were kind of hanging out and playing, but they they closed it like two weeks before I was supposed to start. Yeah, I remember, yeah. And so then you were offered to go to like Cambridge or uh maybe there's there was another option. So you were 12-13 at this time, yeah. Um and it was kind of very last minute. The LT had opened up these like I guess like regional centres, a bit like what they have now.

SPEAKER_02 5:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:43

And people the the other kids of my age were were going to Cambridge, so we went to went to Cambridge, but it didn't it didn't work out at all. Um I mean that's quite a big move moving away from home at that age. It had been a lot of people. Yeah, I mean I wasn't it it was very rushed, like and yeah, for me it was tough like living away from home. Yeah. I was saying in boarding school as well, like it was a bit it it wasn't a good setup for me personally. Um I think the other boys didn't mind it, but I was kind of it was weird. I was at my age, the school didn't have uh that year at the at that at that time, so I had to go to another school, so I was kind of like off-site, off-campus different. So I wasn't really with the other tennis players much. Yeah, so I think that didn't didn't help at all.

SPEAKER_00 6:27

So sorry, let me just backtrack. So at 1213, what sort of level are you playing at? You're obviously the top in the country?

SPEAKER_01 6:33

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like yeah, I mean, I was one of the best in Europe for sure. Like I was winning a lot of those tournaments in you know, France, and I mean a lot of the tur the tournaments of that age you're you're in France. Like I was yeah, I was I was definitely like one of the one of the best. Yeah. In Europe in Europe, yeah. Yeah, I mean, that obviously changed probably from like 14 kind of onwards, but up until that point I w I would have been. Yeah, I mean, in terms of like my style, like going back to that, you know, I didn't have a great experience in Cambridge, and I kind of like you know, lost a lot of confidence like my forehand, and for the rest of my career that was like a problem shot for me. And of course, you know, as the game changed, like you know, you needed to be able to play from the baseline, like it wasn't it wasn't my style at all. And obviously, I in some way out of necessity had to like use different skills to try to be successful in a tennis court, and of course, you know, serve volleying and coming forward when you could um was more like old school, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um but I you know I kind of I had to do it, and and of course I think that's why I kind of learned or I learned my my hand at at doubles and had a lot more success on on the doubles court because for me to be successful in singles like would have been very, very tough.

SPEAKER_00 7:44

Yeah, but I remember that's that sort of age. There was a nice little group of Scottish players. So me being on that junior circuit is similar. I was a couple of years older, but I remember there'd be there'd always be quite a large group of Scottish kids travelling around, which to be honest with you, I was always a bit jealous of because there's there was like a few of you there having fun at the tournaments. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:02

Oh like my mum would take you know, she'd get mini-buses in the summer. We'd go down to like Solihull, Winchester, like the tournament at the time, and you know, kids of all ages, um, and and off we'd go. And it was obviously much more fun to travel as a group, right? And I think also it took away the pressure of like or the disappointments like of losing, you know, because you know, everyone else is doing their own thing, and you you'd finish your match, you'd go back to group, and you'd be messing around, you'd be playing football, you're playing games, whatever. And it was it was a good way of a good way of doing it, and you know, if you think back to the players that played Davis Cup over the years, you know, like uh like Colin Fleming, Jamie Baker, uh myself and and Andy, obviously. Um, you know, to to get they're all in that group as well. It's like David Brewer, who was who was a top 10 junior uh like in on ITF, like it was yeah, it was a bit older than you. Yeah, he's a bit older than me. I mean, I mean he was he was a decent player as well. Yeah, that's a that's a blast from the past. Yeah, it was a blast from the past.

SPEAKER_00 9:02

No, but so you you said it could be a tough experience when you're 12-13. So did you then come back home to Scotland after that?

SPEAKER_01 9:08

Yeah, so I was there like eight months, I came back. Um, and then I that's when I kind of started to struggle really. Um wasn't like enjoying playing tennis, or not enjoying the the trap practicing or I think just like I'd obviously you know at that age I'd gone from being like really, really good to then just like really struggling. And I think at that it's not easy to kind of get your head around that, especially at that at that age. Yeah. Um and it took me took me a while to get to get past that. Um and then when I finished juniors when I was like 18, I wasn't like a great junior like world level, I was maybe like 40 in the world, but that doesn't guarantee you anything in terms of like a successful senior career. I had opportunities to go to college, which I would have done, but at the time it was quite it it was quite difficult for whatever reason, like to for me to become like eligible and like there's yeah, you know, it's like there's quite a few obstacles to clear, and anyway, I got tired of professional tournaments by that point as well. Yeah, maybe you like you had an agent, and it it's a lot easier now, I think, to be eligible at at college, but I kind of got tired of that process and was like, okay, I'm just gonna play and see what see what happens really.

SPEAKER_00 10:18

So going back a bit, you did you leave school at 16?

SPEAKER_01 10:21

Uh 17.

SPEAKER_00 10:23

Yeah, 17. So I did I pretty much did all my studying.

SPEAKER_01 10:26

You then went kind of full-time, kind of yeah, essentially, yeah. I mean, I did all my studying, so you know, if I wanted to go to university, I could have gone to university. Um, I enjoyed school, I enjoyed studying. I had a good group of friends at at school at at Dunblane, and yeah, like I enjoyed my time there. And then when I yeah, when I finished, it was like, okay, like we're gonna try to you know, try to be a tennis player, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

Um and yeah, and and this series, all the conversations I'm having with everyone, is kind of following that journey of going from juniors to seniors, and how it's funny, how everyone I speak to has a different different kind of journey of how they've done it. Yeah, everyone has their own journey, so how how did you find, and again, one of the the the themes that's cropped up is that people don't want to spend too much time at that futures level, it can be quite dangerous in terms of you know longevity of a career. How did you find you're just saying the difficulties there, but how are you finding going in from the juniors, having played all the junior grandstamps into the senior event? How did you find that?

SPEAKER_01 11:22

For I mean, for me it was it was okay. I mean, back then you had quite a lot of tournaments in the UK, like you didn't have to necessarily travel loads and loads because we had satellites which were kind of like four-week events, then futures came into it, and yeah, there was quite a lot of opportunities to play at home. I didn't spend loads of time at that level, but not but that was because I was doing really well my doubles, so then I was able to start playing like Challenger. So, what did you get your singles ranking up to? Oh, like 800 or something, yeah. At what sort of age? Uh I don't know, maybe like 19, 20.

SPEAKER_00 11:55

So is it at this point you start playing a bit more doubles then?

SPEAKER_01 11:58

Or well, I mean, I was playing doubles at the same time, yeah. Um and I was just doing much better than that. I I played a lot with Colin Fleming, Tom Barney was a good British player. Um and then you know, me and Colin started to, you know, we probably got to like 200, a little bit higher. We started to play more more challenger events. Colin was doing quite well in the singles as well. Um, and then when I was 20, the end of 2006, I finished, I was 66 in doubles. Okay, that's amazing. Which was which was for doubles, yeah. Because notoriously, like you know, people were playing later and they start later. Yeah. Um and and I and I was doing I was I was doing well, and I was like, okay, well, you know, I could start the year playing in Australia, and I was like, you know, or go to like Wrexham to play satellite. I was like, well, I think I'm gonna go play go play Australia, and you know, that gave me the opportunity to you know play bigger tournaments, you know, but at the time sorry to go, but at the time there wasn't so many people making the decision to play doubles at a younger age.

SPEAKER_00 13:05

I think from my memory, you're probably one of the earliest.

SPEAKER_01 13:08

No, for sure, for for sure I was, um, and also I think at that time like prize money was starting to change as well. Yeah, obviously, it's got it's increased, you know, over the last 15 years, like exponentially. So, of course, at one point I think a lot of you know other players that were of similar age were probably realized that okay, like I can go down the doubles route earlier and I can make a good career from that. And now there's more and more guys doing it from a from a younger age.

SPEAKER_00 13:42

Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of people coming out of the college system, they're just going straight into the doubles. Yeah, doubles tour. Right. And it's it's great. You know, it's great. But again, in this series, I like to see people that have extended their careers not because everyone grows up wanting to be the singles Wimbledon champion. Yeah, yeah. And then sometimes when they realise that's not of a an option for them, they can fall out of love of the sport pretty quickly. So for you guys to keep your career going, yeah, and obviously achieve what you did afterwards is great. Thanks, man. Um so yeah, fast forwarding then I I noticed the 2007. It's a lot of fast forwarding and rewinding. So 2000s, yeah. I'm I'm going backwards and forwards, backwards and forwards. Um 2007, you won the mixed doubles with Yelena Yankovic. Is that something that you'd been dreaming of doing when winning the mixed doubles as a young age, or I mean it wasn't something I was dreaming of doing, but it it happened.

SPEAKER_01 14:36

Uh I was 21 at the time. And that was huge news. Yeah, I think also I I feel like at the time like Britain had any sort of like win-wooden winner for ages, I think.

SPEAKER_00 14:47

Um I know it was 20 years before Joe Jury had won it, mixed doubles.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

Yeah, so it's it was I mean, I guess in it was quite it was quite a big thing. Um you know, it was it was a really I don't know, it was the first time I'd ever played mixed doubles and and we we won somehow and we played like five matches across three days because it was a year that basically it rained like every day for a week. Yeah. Um I'd played my second round men's doubles the first Friday and then my third round the next Friday. Like it was it was wild. Um and we just like crashed you know all these or pushed all these matches together and we ended up like winning somehow. And you had longer hair there as well. A lot longer hair, yeah. I didn't cut my hair for a year at once. Maybe you're the Johnny Mack headband. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Bring those days back, man.

SPEAKER_00 15:37

So they on the men, you're starting to get a bit success a bit more success. You said you were about 66 when you were 19. 2007 or 2008, you're playing with Bootarak? Yeah, 2007, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

So I was playing with him that year. We were playing. Booty and stretch. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We were probably like we were at that woman, I was probably like 30 in the world. I think we were probably seeded at the tournament there. Um, but yeah, we had good times. We played uh we won like three tournaments that year. Um, we got on really good as well. Um I mean he was a very good player, had a very successful career, and has gone on to do great things post-tennis. Like he's now tournament director at US Open. So it's been uh yeah, it's been impressive watching him.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

Um and then what was your who's your favourite partner over your whole career? Because you you had a number of different partners over the over the years. A lot of different partners, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:21

Um I think Bruno Suarez. I had most of my biggest successes two Grand Slams? Yeah, we won two Grand Slams, we won uh Australian Open, US Open. We finished number one that year as well. Um we never won the tour finals, which we lost in the semis, I think like three times. Um and I think it's nice to you if you get number one before Andy did that yeah. Uh maybe. Maybe I mean like he had a crazy that was crazy 2016, wasn't it? Yeah, I mean he did some like insane stuff to make that happen because he went on a run post-US Open where he won like I don't know how many matches it was, but he probably won like five or six tournaments. On the indoors, yeah. Yeah, all the way through like he won in in I think in Beijing and and Shanghai and then came back and won like three or four tournaments the indoors and obviously went right down to the very last match, uh, which is very unique as well uh in our sport. And yeah, it was it was a wild. You reaching number one in doubles. I mean, that must have been well. I mean, obviously doing it the same time as well was like yeah, it was was was crazy that you would never have you could never write that. Like it's such a random thing to to do.

SPEAKER_00 17:33

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then and then Davis Cup was a great year, was that the 2015, I believe? 2015, yeah. So that would have been the year before you came number one. Yeah. And I noticed you had a great record in that. You won three matches on the way to winning.

SPEAKER_01 17:47

Yeah, I mean we me me and Dawn Minglot, we lost uh five sets to Bryan's in the first match, the first tie, and then me and Andy won the next three matches. Like it was all amazing matches because we played against all Grand Slam nations till the final. Yeah, France, Australia, and America was the first one was the first one, yeah. So we had a great tie at Queens against the French. That was amazing. Yeah, uh in Glasgow and the semis against Australia, like that was a crazy tie, like the support that we had, and um and and also the thing is like you know, but it was it was crazy up there for us because you know, we never have any like live tennis there, so like our opportunity to play in Scotland was really on the bottom. But it always sold out in those Scottish ones, yeah. Yeah, I mean to be fair in the in in England as well, like it was it was really popular around that time because obviously Andy was was was so big in the sport, we were playing world group matches, um, and there was a lot of like yeah, there was a lot of buzz about it, and you know, a lot of great experiences. And when I look back on my career, like those Davis Cup matches are the matches that I remember most because it's the it evoke like the most emotions, you know.

SPEAKER_00 18:52

And so what's the what's the difference between kind of playing for your country against playing just for yourself on the tour, even though you're a double team?

SPEAKER_01 18:59

Well, I think just the it's just the nature of the the team sport, and you know, everyone who goes to Davis Cup match is vested, right? Like they're supporting one team or the other, whereas people that go to a tennis tournament they're there to just watch the tennis tournament. Yeah, of course they have their favourites and stuff, but really they're just there to kind of be part of the event. But if you go to Davis Cup, like there's only one court, there's you know, Saturday is doubles day, there's only one match going like everyone puts all their energy into those those matches, um, and that's what creates like the amazing atmospheres.

SPEAKER_00 19:31

Yeah, yeah. I mean, the final in Belgium would have been an incredible atmosphere for the doubles. I missed the Saturday, but I I watched the Friday and the Sunday. Um, yeah. So how did you find the talking about that? We'll forget why why I missed the Saturday, but yeah, what was yeah, how talk to me about that atmosphere. And you were sitting next to my dad. Yes, yeah. For everyone listening in, I was very fortunate to be watching the Friday and the Sunday. Saturday I missed out on. I got a little bit carried away with a party on the night before. As can happen. As can happen. I got caught up in the GB Davis Cup fever. Fever. So, seeing as I missed the Saturday, talk to me a little bit about the atmosphere. How was it on the on that match?

SPEAKER_01 20:11

Oh, it was great. I mean, we basically played in like a barn, yeah. But I think they sold like cattle in the rest of the the rest of the year. Um, and it was so cold in the build-up to the match because obviously, you know, we were playing in December pretty much, and of course, they're like building the venue, you know, all the doors are open, so it's freezing cold. And then obviously for the actual uh finals weekend, the temperature probably ramped up like 20 odd degrees because you had all of a sudden how many thousand people in there. And they they they they they did a great job, I think, of putting on the putting on the event in you know probably difficult circumstances. Um but it was like yeah, it was amazing. I mean we obviously I would say we were big favourites going into that based on the fact that like Andy was basically like the best player in the world at that at that stage. Yeah, yeah. Um and you know, we you know, we were better doubles team on paper than than than than the Belgians, and you know, for us, like it was the challenge was obviously finishing the tour finals, playing on like fast indoor hardcore, so then going and four days later playing you know on like the slowest clay court of all time, yeah. Um, which was a challenge, but you know, Andy was like, I mean, he was he was playing so well at that stage, and and Goffan was like an amazing he was top five at the time, right? Well top ten at the time. Maybe probably top ten, um, at least top 15 for sure.

SPEAKER_00 21:39

But what was it like playing with your brother? I I've got brothers, I'm sure a lot of people listening got brothers and sisters. Always quite challenging. How did you find playing, I mean, is such a big stage with your brother? What were the challenges of that? And what were the benefits?

SPEAKER_01 21:53

Well, I think the benefits were obviously like you had like complete trust in him. And his ability to deliver under pressure on that stage. And you knew that he could do it and he knew how to do it. And also like you know you knew he wanted to win as much as you did, which is a nice uh is a nice uh feeling to go in with and obviously like gives me kind of confidence to go and like express myself and play my game and and and not necessarily have to worry about what your your parts do or rescue them so much, like yeah, but like there was no danger that he was gonna go in and have a stinker, for example. Yeah, you know, maybe he's at times when we played, maybe he was tired from having battled through the singles every day, and maybe times maybe you take a little bit more responsibility with that, but um obviously an amazing partner to to play with, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:44

Yeah, yeah. Did you play with him in the Olympics as well?

SPEAKER_01 22:46

Or yeah, we played three times, but we never did we never did well, yeah. We never did well. I mean, the first time Beijing, we were young, um, and then London. I mean, we had an amazing atmosphere on court two at Wimbledon. I was not playing well at the time. Was that France? Uh no, we lost to Austria. Long three-set match, we were up like breaks of serve in the third set. Like the atmosphere was ridiculous, and I felt so bad after that match that we'd lost because like it was totally my fault, and of course, it was like home Olympics, like you're never getting that chance again. Um, and I didn't, yeah, I didn't do myself justice. And I mean, maybe it worked out for Andy anyway, because he went on and won this won the singles. And then we played in Rio, and we lost first round as well to Brazilians. We were like two in the world each at the time, lost a close match of them, so yeah, Olympics never really like worked out.

SPEAKER_00 23:41

Didn't work out, but did you get to meet the other athletes and stuff?

SPEAKER_01 23:44

Yeah, I mean, certainly the British athletes. Um and you're I mean you're in the village, so you're in and around everybody, you know, athletes from like all walks of life, all nations, all shapes and sizes. Like it's a really I mean that's the Olympic experience, I think, is being in the Olympic village and just being around everybody, like the best athletes in the world.

SPEAKER_00 24:06

If you could go back to one match in your career to to re replay, which one would you play?

SPEAKER_01 24:14

I would watch the Davis Cup match against France, probably at Queens. Uh yeah, what an atmosphere. The Australia one was in Scotland was amazing as well. Uh we played a good one against Argentina as well, actually. That was a good match. Um I don't remember that much of like my matches, don't like yeah, I don't know why that is, but like I couldn't really recollect like loads of points and stuff. No. Sometimes you see them like on Instagram. You're gonna love my quiz at the end then when I'm at it. Yeah, it's floundering.

SPEAKER_00 24:46

Um yeah, good so looking back at your juniors, what would you advise for any parents of you said a bit of a tough time at 12 to 13. What would you advise any other parents that are maybe going through a similar thing with their players?

SPEAKER_01 25:00

To be a tennis player, the journey is super long, right? Like you're gonna probably start at three, four, five years old. And me, like I'm 40 years old now, like I've played for 35 years. You look 21. I do, yeah, which is great, you know, great skincare routines, uh, which you learn along the way. Yeah. Um, but you know, there's gonna be a lot of ups and downs. So the but the most important thing is to enjoy it because otherwise, you know, it's gonna be a lot of pain. I mean, imagine you know, doing your job for 35 years that you that you hate. Like that's not doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun. So I think the important thing is to enjoy it. I I think also uh, you know, people a lot of times you know, parents get a bad rap and you know, for whatever reason, but I think it's not easy to be a parent, to be a tennis parent, because it's like they why should they know like all the right decisions to make and what journey to go down, who to listen to, like especially if they're not you know coming from a tennis background. Like like my mum obviously played tennis, yeah, her parents played tennis, but she didn't know everything, she didn't know what was right for for me and Andy. She she spoke to a lot of people, and then she decided herself on who she trusted and who she believed in, and she kind of followed followed that. But for her, it was like a huge, huge learning curve, and she'd been in tennis all her life. So imagine you know, someone whose parents haven't been in tennis, like yeah, which is the majority, but the majority. I definitely feel for the parents, and I I understand like it's difficult to to get it right, and you know, also in our country, it's not like loads of different options really um available available to them. But uh and I think just from from in terms of like a development for your kids, like one is make sure they're enjoying it. I think that's that falls on the parents a lot, yeah. In terms of like the pressure you put on them and whatnot. Um, but also I think the biggest thing is just like constantly developing your game and not getting caught up in you know winning and losing, because ultimately it doesn't count for anything if you win and lose at 12 or 13 or 14 or 15. It's only when you get into like professional or full-time tennis. Whereas your job that's when it matters. So up until you're that age, like really you should just be trying to develop a game that's gonna be or can translate into the to the senior game. Because also when you're 17, 18 and you start playing these professional tournaments, you know, you're gonna be competing against players who are maybe like 10, 12 years older than you, yeah. You know, fully grown men who've been out there for for a long time, know the ropes and stuff. So it's it's being ready like physically and mentally to go and and and do that.

SPEAKER_00 27:41

And what would you tell yourself as a 12-13-year-old if you could go back in time?

SPEAKER_01 27:46

Uh I mean, I probably wouldn't have gone into Cambridge, that would have been one thing. Um I could have dealt with that situation better as I as I got as I got older. Um for me, that's probably the biggest I don't know, red flag, let's say, in my in my career. But I think also when I sort of was young, like I was probably 20, 21, and I and I got to maybe like 30 in the world quite quickly in doubles, and probably I assumed that I would just keep on that trajectory, but obviously it gets harder to keep climbing the rankings the higher you go, and I kind of plateaued for a bit, probably didn't stick. Maybe like it wasn't I wasn't working hard, but I I I think I saw players ahead of me that had different game styles to me. Yeah, became a lot more like power base, and I think I tried to go down that route more. What really like wasn't my style of play, my style was being more like unpredictable and and creative and having like different different shots, but kind of using that as a differential against other players, yeah. Um, and when I went back to working with Louis Caillet, it's kind of what he said to me is like, look, just trust me, I'll get you to where you need to go, but you know, listen to what I'm what I'm saying. Like you have these skills, you know, you can be annoying to play against, you have different shots that other guys don't have. Like, let's work on that and and and be you and be yourself. And and when I bought into that, like things moved quickly again for me.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

Yeah. But you've now kind of made the decision to stop playing. What was the what was your thought price behind that?

SPEAKER_01 29:20

I think a few things. I mean, last year, well, I think for a couple of years, like I'd I'd struggled a lot with my serve, there was a lot of anxiety there, and so like I wasn't enjoying competing that much anymore. Right. It was more about like surviving, and largely like I kept my ranking, let's say, around like 20 in that in that time, sometimes higher, sometimes a bit lower. But I was I was surviving, but I wasn't like enjoying it. And then last summer I got uh like I got pneumonia randomly after Wimbledon, and so like I kind of missed the whole summer. I went back to play US Open. I wasn't really like feeling that right, and I was like, okay, I'm not gonna go to China for a month because I need to like rest my body if I keep traveling, training, playing, like I'm not giving myself a chance to to fully recover. And then I was like, okay, I'll come back and play the indoor tournaments, finish the season, and then I just like didn't pick up a racket again. Yeah, and was like, well, I think that's kind of telling me something, and and in a way, like it was kind of relief that I didn't have to do it. It's a long career, which is good. Yeah, I played yeah, I basically paid played like 20 years, you know, like a proper top level. So, you know, I feel very privileged that I was able to do that. I don't really miss playing, maybe because I played that long and I felt like I I had enough. You're definitely crafting out of it, yeah. You know, so I'm yeah, like I'm I'm content with where I where I am, and obviously it's an interesting next chapter for me. Like well, that's what I was gonna ask. What is on the agenda? You're tournament director, Queens? Is that yeah? So I I I'm doing that again this year. It was a three-year contract, whether that continues or not, like we'll we'll we'll see. Um, but I've I've enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_00 31:02

What's what is what are your duties there?

SPEAKER_01 31:05

My duties is very like player-facing, I would say. Um, of course, in a way, you're kind of let's say, like the face of the tournament in terms of like a logistical standpoint. Um, but but it's it's a I mean, it's a fairly small role. I'm not gonna big it up like it's the the most, you know, I'm in charge of everything or anything like that, because that's not true. But certainly player-facing roles, making sure you know they have the best experience that they that they can have. So obviously a bit you you play a big role, let's say, in in scheduling, or at least you have like final decision in a way. Like they have to, you know, you in the end like sign off on quite a few things with regards to that. Um, you know, you're working with the ATP, with the broadcasters, international broadcast to you know, to try to kind of keep everyone happy, which can be challenging at times, but when the weather's good and stuff like it, it definitely helps, yeah. And Queen, yeah, like it's a very prestigious tournament. Like it's is a privilege to be part of that and feel like you have a small role to play in its in its success. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:04

So what what are your plans now? Post post-playing career? Are you just enjoying the time off, or what's your thing is start my own podcast, you know? Yeah, well as long as you don't call it beyond tennis, I'm alright.

SPEAKER_01 32:17

Um I don't I I don't know. I mean, I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm gonna do some work with Sky this year, a bit of commentary, a bit of TV stuff. And you enjoy that? You enjoy the TV work? I enjoy it, yeah. I enjoy the I enjoy the chat. I enjoy when you can kind of go into maybe like slightly deep deeper analysis into you know why things are happening in in the in the matches. I went to Australia, did some commentary there, and did some stuff for TNT, which I which I enjoyed. It was fun working with Tim and Tim and Laura.

SPEAKER_00 32:44

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, good, that covers your tennis. Okay. We're now gonna move on to your football love, uh your beyond tennis. That's kind of all we've spoken about, me and you, for the last 20 years when we were speaking to each other, generally about the football. Your first love would have been hibs.

SPEAKER_01 33:01

Was that right? Yeah, we grew up like watching hibs, yeah. Like my grandpa played for them long time ago. Um, my dad would take us to games, my uncle and aunt would take us to to games sitting in like the family enclosure and watching them like you know, we had some tough moments watching hibs over the years. Not a huge amount of success, nothing losing to like airdry, I was going to Airdry and watching lose to them. Uh like cup semi-finals, losing to Livingston, Air United, like this stuff, and then uh toughening you up, yeah, putting hairs on your chest, yeah. But it was great, and the club's always been amazing to us. Like, I went three times over kind of Christmas and New Year to watch them, went down to Kilmarnock, yeah, yeah. Went to Dundee the other week as well. Um, just on my own. Like, I was how it's getting on now. We're fifth. Um, so they've had a pretty decent season. I think they're probably always looking to kind of be third to fifth, I would say. Definitely like top. So they're enjoying the fact that Hearts are doing quite well then. Do you know what? It's an interesting one because like me personally, I would like it if Hearts won the league. Someone different, someone different.

SPEAKER_02 34:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:11

Um yeah, I'm not necessarily a fan of like Celtic or Rangers, and I'd like to see someone else do it. And to be honest, if they don't win it this season, you know, probably will never win it because Celtic and Rangers have both had their struggles this season, changing managers.

SPEAKER_00 34:29

Who's the last team that didn't win from Celtic?

SPEAKER_01 34:32

Was it Aberdeen? I think it was Aberdeen like in the 80s, you know, so it's been like forever, so it's like 40 years. Yeah, so I think it'd be amazing for Scottish football if if if Hearts do it. I think there's been a lot more interest in the league as well because of what Hearts have done this season, on top of you know, Rangers and Celtics struggling uh you know for various different different reasons. So I think it's good for the game. You know, I'm yeah, I'm I'm I'm all in for Hearts winning. I'm sure there'll be Hibbs fans as well in the same boat as me that are quite okay with them winning because it's someone different and it's not you know the same story of Celtic and Rangers finishing 20 points.

SPEAKER_00 35:09

Over the years that you've been watching Hibbs, who are the top three players? Uh top three players for you, your top three favourite hippies.

SPEAKER_01 35:17

I think I mean currently, like Martin Boyle, he's been there a long time. He's been one of the best players in the league for a long time. Uh you know, great servant to the club, great player. Um I mean, when I was younger, watching like Frank Sose was amazing, Russell Latapi. You know, they were like great players, very good players. Um championship manager back in the day. Yeah, okay, yeah. Good for a goal, huh? Um, so like I enjoyed watching them. And then recently, yeah, Martin Boyle, I mean Lewis Stevenson, Paul Hann, I mean, they played like forever at Hibbs, so many games and stuff. They were like um yeah, great servants to the club, good people as well. Um, and your your your English team, I I hate to say it, but it is Manchester United. That's yeah, Man United, yeah. I mean, I supported them from a young age just because I mean they were the best, like growing up in certain years. Obviously, they had Alex Ferguson's Scottish manager, Darren Fletcher was like Scottish captain. Um you got to meet both.

SPEAKER_00 36:14

Yeah, I mean you know you know Darren Fletcher quite a lot. Are they tennis fans or do they uh it's I don't know, but sure, yeah. I'm not gonna say like who Alex Ferguson came to a couple of the finals, didn't he?

SPEAKER_01 36:25

He remembered Yeah, he was in he was in US Open when uh yeah, when Andy won, I think when Andy won, I think I don't know if he was there in the final if he was there. I think he had a couple of shandies, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:35

Okay, yes, and and football playing wise, we've we've uh I think I remember your not about to claim that as a as a player. I mean good 11 aside matches. And I also remember, okay, I don't know if you remember this, but your Stagdu played football at the NTC, and I remember I think every goal scored you have to do a shot of vodka. Yeah, and it's so many are you missing?

SPEAKER_01 36:57

Yeah, whatever. But it was Andy that was leading it, and I was laughing because at the time like he wasn't like nothing. He's like, I'll get a shot, I'll get it. I'm like, Andy, like you know what that stuff does to you. I mean, we all love it. We still had lots to do that day as well, yeah. It's funny. I was actually.

SPEAKER_00 37:13

You were playing quite a bit of football as a as a kid, or you said it's a big funny.

SPEAKER_01 37:16

Five aside, seven aside stuff, never really in like proper fixed teams or anything like that.

SPEAKER_00 37:23

Who's uh all the tennis players? Who's the best footballer that you've seen?

SPEAKER_01 37:28

I mean it's funny because like at Indian Wales don't say me, obviously. Obviously. And of course, they they leave the foot and everyone fancies themselves the footballer, and you know, like someone passes it, you pass the ball to someone, and of course, then they've got like flick it up and do like a few keeping up just to show you that they've got something, you know, like mate, like it's a keep you up.

SPEAKER_00 37:54

Come on, yeah, go on. So, yeah, I mean that's the the other thing because you're Scottish, obviously you play golf, yeah. I think you you get given a golf club at birth, I believe, up there. It's a right of passage. It's a right of passage.

SPEAKER_01 38:05

Um how often do you get into play at the minute? Playing more now because obviously a bit more time, the weather's starting to get better, days or longer. Um but I love it. Like I played so much growing up, played a load till I was sort of like probably 16, 17, and then once I moved down to London and was really like focused on tennis, played played a lot less. Um But it's I mean I it's like I love it. Like I don't play as well as I used to, but the thing with golf is like you know, you could hit like a hundred terrible shots, but you hit like one good shot that you see like exactly where you want to exactly get it gets you it gets you back. Um and that's kind of like that's the beauty of the sport, and I guess for me, like it's a challenge also to try to get better. It's the same like paddle. I started playing a lot of paddle the last two or three weeks.

SPEAKER_00 38:53

I've got to play soon. I want to play with you, yeah. Yeah, I mean I can't move, as you can as you can see. So I'll play with you. But yes, I need I need you because you're the coverage around the net. I'll be like I saw some Instagram videos of you doing some proper paddle drills.

SPEAKER_01 39:06

I was like, Yeah, yeah, but it's taking it very seriously. He wants to, yeah. But that's like for me again, it's a challenge. Like, I want to get better. And paddle gets it's the better you get at it, the more fun it is because then you can like keep the rallies going because you know how to like play off the wall. How are you off the wall? No, I mean very, very average. That's the thing with tennis players, isn't it we all sit in front? Yeah, because in tennis, if the ball goes past you, it's it's done. It's death. But in paddle is is actually better than the bigger.

SPEAKER_00 39:31

So the lesson that you were happening were they're teaching you how to play off the wall and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 39:34

Yeah, he was teaching me how to play off the wall. Like, okay, if it hits off this panel, this is kind of where you need move, or your or your footwork pattern, or if it's gonna hit off panel two and three, this is kind of how you need it's it's addictive, it's addictive too. So addictive, like and and everyone that I've it's it's a nice community in in my experience. Um and people like they just yeah, like I could play every day. Right now I could play every day. Yeah, and and everyone that I talk to is kind of the same, like it is it is so it is so and it's very social as well.

SPEAKER_00 40:05

I think it's dangerous to tennis in any way, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:09

I think so. Like that's what I'm saying. If I had a tennis club, I would have paddle courts, yeah, for sure, because I'd want to like cater to as many people as I as I can. Yeah, um, but of course, on the flip side, in terms of like you know, getting more people playing tennis, it's not good. Like we're obviously losing tennis courts across the across the country, um, and really across the world. Like it's it's it's it's very known that that's what's that's what's happening. Like it is a better business, I think. Um so that like that is that is a concern. But if I had a tennis club, I would definitely offer offer paddle. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:47

Um so and but they're they're being installed all over the country, aren't they, at the moment? And you don't see and I notice in Scotland that they've just built some indoor tennis courts, but there's a lot not lot more courts being built up in Scotland at the moment than the UK, indoor wise. Paddle. Tennis courts I'm talking about. Everyone seems to be going down the paddle route. So I'm just I'm I'm personally just a little bit worried that tennis gets a little bit diluted. I love paddle and I'm addicted to it as well. But just the just your average Joe that you're meeting in the street, they're all rather play paddle than tennis at the minute.

SPEAKER_01 41:18

Well, yeah, it's just it's a much more social game, yeah, for sure. It's much like it's much easier to play in the sense of like you know, literally as long as you can bounce the ball and hit it, then you can compete, right? You don't have to worry as much. There you go. Yeah. And you know, and it's like it, yeah, it's just it's it's fun. You get much more, let's say, like bang for your buck because you know, the ball's in play so much more. Like if we're playing tennis and like we're spooning balls over the fence or three courts away, you've got to run and pick them up. Like the maybe you you play for an hour and the the ball's only in play for like 10 minutes. But paddle, you know, you're in a confined space, you just pick up the ball and off you go again. Like it's it's very there's no downtime in paddle. No, zero downtime, and it's a great workout as well. Like it's a proper workout. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good. Well, thanks for that. Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 42:10

You're not done yet, though.

unknown 42:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 42:13

Are you ready? We're gonna do our match tie break. So it's the same questions I ask everybody. Okay. Don't spend too much time thinking about it. Give me a nice quick answer. Okay, but are you ready for your match tie break, Jimbo? Okay, number one, who is the greatest tennis player of all time? Djokovic. Novak Djokovic. Number two, who's your favourite tennis player of all time? Rafa. Rafa. And uh in in history, maybe before when you were growing up, was there somebody? Because Rafa's was Rafa.

SPEAKER_01 42:40

I like Rios, I like Rios. Rafa's my age, yeah. So I first met him when I was 10. Did you play him a few times? Played against him, yeah. Um and he was left hand then as a mental effort. Same, like he had all his little you know, things that he would that he would do. I mean, he was incredible at that at that age, um, and was still incredible, you know, 25 years later. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 43:02

But you played him a few times as a junior.

SPEAKER_01 43:04

I played him one time, yeah. One time when we were like 11.

SPEAKER_00 43:07

Good. Um, what's your favourite shot to hit? Folly. Thought you'd answer that one. Yeah. Who is the toughest opponent you've faced on the doubles court? So let's have it as a pair.

SPEAKER_01 43:20

Who's the toughest opponent? I mean, Brian's probably Nestor Zimenich were really tough when they were at their their peak. Like, I never really liked playing them. It was like all power, and you never felt like you were playing on your terms, you know, like they can kind of take the rack out of your hand a bit. I never liked playing those type of players.

SPEAKER_00 43:36

Max Myrney.

SPEAKER_01 43:37

Yeah, maybe yeah, a bit Max Murney, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:40

Um, okay, who is this is a two-parter is who's the best player never to win a grand slam? And I want it in singles. Rios. Rios, good answer. I think that's been quite he's like my favourite player growing up. The Yonick's RD7s. Um and who's the best doubles? Let's just go pair, let's go pair of doubles. The never won a slam. The never won a slam.

SPEAKER_01 44:01

I mean a lot of guys. I mean, Granler's the Bios as a team were probably the best team that didn't win. But then they won't. I think they won two last year, yeah. But they'd had so much success for so long and for whatever reason So they cranked.

SPEAKER_00 44:14

Yeah. Um who is you've had a few in your time, but who's your dream doubles partner uh across history?

SPEAKER_01 44:21

I think if I for me, Nestor, like if I think he was probably the in in the times that I played, he was the best player. Did you ever play with him all?

SPEAKER_02 44:28

No.

SPEAKER_01 44:29

One tournament. One tournament. It's weird. We we so we beat him in the final of the Aussie Open, and then like a week later we're we played together in Rotterdam. Oh wow. But we only played one match. We we we lost and that was it. But you know, he wasn't at his peak then. But I when I started coming through and he was like really dominating, yeah. I I wasn't good enough really to he was always number one or two in the world.

SPEAKER_00 44:49

Um you kind of answered this a bit earlier, but what's the best atmosphere you've ever played in?

SPEAKER_01 44:54

I think Australia Davis Cup semi-final, I think. Where was that? In Glasgow. In Glasgow. Yeah, yeah. Against Australia. Oh, uh against Hewitt and Sam Groth. Okay, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:06

Oh, that was a five sets of the five sets.

SPEAKER_01 45:08

Five sets, yeah. Long one.

SPEAKER_00 45:10

Um, who's your favourite tournament?

SPEAKER_01 45:12

What is a favourite tournament? Uh it's funny. I always say Cincinnati when I think of it, because I always did like really well there for whatever reason. And uh I haven't had that one from I know no other player will say Cincinnati, but I always felt comfortable there. I like the conditions, and it's like the only tournament in the Midwest, so people would drive for hours to go there. So everyone that's on site is there because they're a big tennis fan. Yeah. And I think it showed in kind of like the let's see, like the energy around the grounds and the the the courts and stuff. Okay, two more. One rule in tennis you'd change tomorrow. Those video reviews are terrible. Like just the quality of them, the angles and everything, and like the the pick their crap. But I I would say that you for me like you can reach over the net and play the shot. Yeah. Like if I hit an amazing shot, then my opponent can like barely get back, and if I let it bounce on my side, it's gonna suddenly become super awkward for me. I think that's a disadvantage. Like I should just be able to lean over the not touch the net, but if I can hit over it, you should be able to do that. That's what I think.

SPEAKER_00 46:18

That's that sounds like somebody who spent a lot of time right next to the net. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 46:21

Yeah, and in I mean in doubles you'll see a you'll see it more for for sure. Um, but yeah, I think you should be able to do that.

SPEAKER_00 46:28

And lastly, who would you who would play you in a film about your life, Jamie? Who would play me? Who would play you? Which actor would play you in a film about your life?

SPEAKER_01 46:37

I don't know. Someone quite vanilla, maybe vanilla. Was it the who do you look like most or something?

SPEAKER_00 46:43

Yeah, who would you like to play you? So when somebody asked me, I said I was Dom Jolly or Jack Black.

SPEAKER_02 46:48

Dom Jolly.

SPEAKER_00 46:51

So that was me. Excellent.

SPEAKER_01 46:54

Excellent. Good choice. Oh, yeah. Um uh Jamie Dornen, maybe. Okay, I see that.

SPEAKER_00 47:01

I do see that a little bit. Yeah, okay, yeah. Okay, Jamie Dornen. Interesting. Let's reach out and let's make the biopic. Thank you very much. That's your match tie break. And did I win that match tiebreak? You didn't, mate. To be fair, to be fair, I mean that one's a lot more repeated. The last quiz is actually around your career. Okay. Or a little bit around the stats of your career. Okay. So this is the one I'm going to count a bit more to your score, your final score. Face more emphasis on. Face more emphasis on exactly. Are you ready? I'm very ready. He's always ready. Okay. How many ATP titles did you win across your career according to the ATP website? I think it was 35, maybe? 34. Hopeless! That's good. That's fine. That's not one up. It's not bad. Now, this is a tough one. Do you know how many matches you won on the doubles tour? How many matches? What is your if you can give me your win-loss record within five each way, I'll give you the point. 550, 560 matches. And lost. A lot. 450, maybe. That's very good. 5'89 wins. Okay. So not far off. That's not too bad. And 430 losses. Okay. It's a lot of losses there. Yeah, but there's a lot more wins than losses. Thankfully. Yeah. If it was the other way around. You wouldn't be sitting here, really. You wouldn't be sitting here if you hadn't been. Okay, this is gonna be a tough one. What month? I want the year and the month. Yeah did you reach number one in the world? Uh April 2016. On the nose. On the nose. Good lad. Well done. Okay. You won two Grand Slam men's doubles titles. Yeah. US Open and Australian Open 2016. Who did you beat in the finals? And can you tell me the score? So, Australian Open.

SPEAKER_01 48:50

Yeah, we beat Nestor and Stepanek. I'm gonna say the score was in Australia? Yeah, I'm gonna say was 2-6-6-3-7-5.

SPEAKER_00 49:02

That's an incredible memory. That's correct. No, you're one game off.

SPEAKER_01 49:06

2-6-6-4-7-5. That's very good. I knew he got pumped in the first set, so it must have been more than one break.

SPEAKER_00 49:13

J just my head. Are all the finals three sets?

SPEAKER_01 49:15

Yeah. Are they? Yeah. Uh Wimbledon, maybe, or not? Is that all? Well, Wimbledon was always five sets until the last two or three years, yeah. Okay. Um and US Open, who'd you beat? Final? We'd be Guillermo Garcia Lopez and Pablo Careno Busta. Very good. Can you tell me what the score was in that match?

SPEAKER_00 49:32

I think it was 6-2-6-2. You like getting one game off, don't you? Was it 6-2-6-3? Yes! 6-2-6-3. Good stuff. Um to the Davis Cup. What was your doubles record in the Davis Cup? 14-6. On the nose! For real, really. Well done. 14 that's an incredible doubles record. Two more questions that you've got. Do you remember when you first broke into the top 10 in doubles? Can you give me a month and a year that you broke into the top 10? September 2015. July 2015. Just after you got to the final with John Pierce. Oh, when we're in. Yeah, I was thinking US Open. Yeah, you got to the final. Okay, and last one, this is gonna be a tough one. How many different dup doubles partners did you have across your career? 86. 86. You had 78.

SPEAKER_01 50:20

Not a bad game. 78.

SPEAKER_00 50:22

But I've got it in 2012, you had 15 partners. Yeah, it's possible, yeah. That's quite a lot of partners, isn't it? It's too many, yeah. 78 over your career is crazy. Yeah. But you had a long career. Yeah. Good stuff. Well, thanks, Jamie. Thanks for watching for coming in. Enjoy yourself. Loved it, yeah. Um, and tune in for next week's episode of Beyond Tennis. Like, subscribe, and do all those things. A Vamos!