SPEAKER_00 0:00

The moment that lob landed in the corner. Yeah, I'm just literally like that. Just completely gone. Spent. Completely spent. Literally the last ball of a long season.

SPEAKER_02 0:16

My next guest started out as a keen junior tennis player before discovering his true calling in strength and conditioning. He spent over 15 years working his way up to become one of the most recognizable fitness trainers in the world, working with the great Andy Murray, the Great Britain Davis Cup team, Jack Draper, and Katie Bolter. He's also recently launched his online training programme, The Way of the Tortoise. And if that wasn't enough, he's a very passionate Charlton athletic fan. No one is perfect. Ladies and gentlemen, Matthew Little. Hello, Matthew, welcome. Good, good, good. Have you done many podcasts before?

SPEAKER_00 0:53

One or two, but none as fun as this one.

SPEAKER_02 0:55

So with Beyond Tennis, what we're going to do is we're going to talk about your tennis journey and an excellent experience. So let's start off. When did you start your tennis journey? When did a tennis racket get into your hand?

SPEAKER_00 1:05

Um, so started pretty late in my sort of early teens when Sutton Jr. Tennis Centre first opened its doors before they had indoor courts there. Um and so myself, a couple of friends of mine started started playing, absolutely loved it straight away. Just spent all day, all night at Sutton Junior Tennis Centre. Um, yeah, I was very average, but so enthusiastic, absolutely loved it. So I'd be the guy that would go to the tournament, the county tournament, I'd lose first round, but I'd still be there at the weekend, like messing around playing short tennis with my mates on the court next door where the final's going on. You know, so that was me. I was a first round loser, most tournaments. Um loved it. But absolutely loved it. So clearly, I was never gonna do anything in the game itself as a player, that was obvious at by about the age of but um but I loved the fit fitness side. We used to do the beep test every Sunday at Sutton. I was in pretty good shape at the time.

SPEAKER_02 2:03

And this is why you're still trying to play tennis a bit.

SPEAKER_00 2:05

Yeah, so still playing loads, and um and so yeah, I just I loved the physical side of it as well. So I knew at the age of 16 the exact job I wanted to do for a living. I was completely clear at 16 I want to be a strength well, at that time, a fitness trainer in tennis. That's it, that's it. That's all I was doing.

SPEAKER_02 2:23

It was quite early to know that you're gonna be because that's quite a niche part of the strength and conditioning world, is tennis specific. Yeah, but knowing that at 16, quite young.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

That's it. And and so everything I did from that point on was all about becoming qualified and learning obviously all about the physical side of the game. Um, I then went to Australia for a year to watch all of the best Aussies train and their S and C coaches. Everything I did was about being this. So when did you start actually training tennis players? So then probably so went back to Sutton. Yeah. Um so they opened a gym there, so started training the the um I think the LTA opened uh a performance centre or what it was called back then. So so started training some of the academy players there, uh, then started training a couple of the LTA players, started to get a bit of interest there, exactly. Yeah, you'd have been one of them. Yeah. And then um, yeah, went off to Australia, came back and got my first sort of official LTA job at Loughborough in 2001. Okay. And what age were you then? Oh, crikey, yeah, mid-twenties probably something. Uh mid-20s or yeah, mid to late twenties.

SPEAKER_02 3:31

So you're kind of working with some of probably the best British junior tennis players.

SPEAKER_00 3:35

Yeah, so Dan Evans was there, Dan Cox, um, guy called Lewis Barnes. So we won, they won the uh junior world championships, yeah. Um uh under 14s, uh, had a really yeah, really strong group of group of kids at at that time and learnt a lot with Leighton Alfred, Mark Taylor, yeah, Ian Hughes.

SPEAKER_02 3:54

I was gonna say, who what kind of guys were influencing you on the fitness side? Did you have people that or mentors that you were looking up to at the time or not?

SPEAKER_00 4:01

Not really not loads of SNC mentors at the time, to be fair. Um, but Leighton particularly was a huge personality and mentor in in my life to the extent where I was still talking like him, like years after I'd left the academy. Yeah, and even when I was started working with Andy, I was still talking like Leighton. Actually, the team were like, Matt, you're still talking like Leighton Alfred. Like, can you just bring a bit of yourself to the and I did like that's how big an influence he was on me. Um, but yeah, Mark, Taylor, Ian Hughes, all those guys. So it was a lot of tennis coaches as mentors, yeah. Uh, and then Jez Green was a massive mentor of mine as well, particularly when we started with Andy, but he was kind of like you know, the standard setter in you know, in in British tennis for SNC, Steve Green before him as well. Steve Green was awesome.

SPEAKER_02 4:52

He was like, Steve Green, yeah, he was running the LTA side of the fitness and thing. So you were working obviously with some of the best British juniors. When did you start working with professional tennis players?

SPEAKER_00 5:02

Yeah, so um LTA restructured, Loughborough closed. Yeah, um, so I applied for a job uh at the NTC when it first opened. Yeah. Um so Anne Quinn was the head of all things sports science, sports medicine. She gave me a job as part of the SNC team. And what did you have to do then role? So started working with the the men's side. Um so I was with uh Ross Hutchins, Josh Goodall, that kind of crew, uh Miles Kassiri. Yeah, Wimbledon Junior finalists, yeah, absolutely, yeah. Um uh Lee Charles, all that crew was were kind of at the base at the NTC. Um so started with those those guys, um, and then Jamie Murray was there. So I started working with Jamie when he won mixed in 2007, started with Jamie. Yeah, yeah. Um, and then through Jamie, kind of got chatting with Andy a little bit, bumped into him a few times at the NTC, um, and then in yeah 2007 started with him. That's when we started kind of catching up a bit more.

SPEAKER_02 6:04

You you going back into the juniors, what was your speciality in your fitness training? What did you try and bring into the junior players? What was uh from a fitness point of view?

SPEAKER_00 6:12

Yeah, I I think selling them the importance of fitness, the importance of strength and conditioning at the time, like making it a part of their job as it were. I think that was probably the biggest thing. Um, I've always had a fascination with the movement of the sport and how players move. Uh, and I've you know I learnt a lot from coaches and a lot from Jez on that, and um and essentially trying to make SNC in a way harder than anything they'll face on the court, particularly in matches, yeah. So that kind of link between the psychological side, mental toughness, and physical fitness, yeah, that was something that with the juniors we worked on a lot. But to be perfectly honest, back in those days dealing with a young Dan Evans, you know, it was uh all I could do to just keep my sanity of a mind, develop my skills as an SC coach. It was more like crowd control, yeah, yeah, getting him there, yeah. Yeah, but learnt so much on the job and loved it again, fully committed, moved up to Loughborough, um, had a great time, had some really tough times, yeah, you know, learnt my trade.

SPEAKER_02 7:20

Well, that a lot of this series, again, we've been speaking to a majority of tennis players or coaches, yeah, but a lot of it is uh kind of the transition from juniors into seniors for the playing point of view. Yeah, so I wanted to kind of explore with you what was your transition just to kind of explain to people how hard you worked to get up to the stage where you ended up being Andy Murray's trainer. Yeah. So those days, what would a and I'm going back to the NTC junior days, and what would a typical week look like for you as a fitness trainer?

SPEAKER_00 7:48

Yeah, well, typically you're you're there before everyone because you're doing all the warm-ups, and you're there after everyone because you're doing all the gym stuff in the cool. So long days. So a lot of long days, and you know, if you ask Mark and Layton, those guys, I you know, I put it in, I put a proper shift in. Um, you know, seven days a week, whenever I was needed, I was there. Um and and just trying to get better, making a whole bunch of mistakes, like we all do, but then coming back in the next day, dusting myself down, right, okay, back we go again, you know, and and actually the the team around me were a pretty um they're a pretty tough team. Like they didn't they didn't allow me to just get away with fluff. Yeah, yeah you know, they had real substance, real reason behind it all. So I couldn't bluff, I couldn't bluff Leighton Mark or Hughesy, those guys, they've been around so long. Yeah, it's like they can spot if you're if you're blagging it, you know. So actually it that gave me the the soft skills, the toolkit to deal with pro players, yeah, was that kind of look, you know, have some substance about you, you know. If you don't know something, say you don't know, that's fine. We don't expect you to know everything. You're young, you're at the start of your career, yeah. But show the right values, turn up and work hard, keep pushing yourself, you know, learn, listen. Um, and and I think a lot of that they they were pretty direct with me when I got it wrong. Yeah. And and actually that's I think that's a bit missing now. Right, yeah. Is that you know the way we are now is you know, we want to make sure we look after everyone and take care of everyone's feelings and all that kind of stuff, which is important, yeah, but elite sport also doesn't always allow for that, and you've got to be willing to have rhino thick skin, take a few knocks, turn up the next day with a good attitude again, not sulking. Yeah, um, and so as much as I learned about the game and how to be around elite junior players, yeah. I just learned how to how to conduct myself in the world of elite sport, which I think invaluable lessons for you.

SPEAKER_02 9:48

Because I look I look across now uh th as being a very specific tennis fitness trainer, yeah there's there'll be a lot of fitness trainers around the country watching this, um, and I know just from a tennis player's point of view I think it would probably help that the fact that you knew tennis a little bit, yes, so that you'd had a bit of experience playing, and that comes across when you do your fitness training with the players. So, what advice would you give to kind of some of the younger fitness trainers that are starting off now that maybe didn't play tennis much or or maybe had played a little bit of tennis?

SPEAKER_00 10:20

Spend as much time on the courts with the coaches watching the sessions as possible because by you know, just by osmosis, you will hear all the conversations, all the coaching advice, terminology, the tactical advice, the terminology. Learn how to actually demonstrate a shot. You know, you see so many S C coaches from other sports, and they're talking to a group of kids about a forehand, and it it looks more like a cricket shot than a forehand, and the players tap out, you've just lost them instantly. So learn that stuff, get on court, hit a load of balls, learn the game as quickly as you can. But spend don't just think my job is in the gym. Actually, probably the first few years you should spend as much time on the court putting effort into absorbing all that information as actually in the gym working on because I in my opinion, and I you know might get shot down for this, the gym-based stuff is relatively straightforward. You know, it sets and reps and it squats and it's push and pull and rotate and all of those things. Uh, and I'm not trivialising that, but what I'm saying is the real the real detail is in the on court stuff, and how do I get the gym stuff to transfer onto here? Yeah, what's the point squatting if it doesn't come onto the court here? Yes, and translating that into their game.

SPEAKER_02 11:33

Well, I think that that's a that's a really good one, like of making sure because again, fitness trainers will have their hours that they have to do working at academies or schools or whatever, but that extra because I mean I know you from from from before that doing that extra work probably put you in good stead.

SPEAKER_00 11:48

Yeah, well, it's everything, like I say, the language you use, um, how to talk to players, how to be around players, when to push, when to pull, all of those things I pick up from tennis coaches. Um, and if I hadn't spent that time on the court, I mean, like I say, I had a bit of an advantage because I at least played badly, but I understood I knew what a western grip was, I knew what a slice was, I knew what volley movement was, etc. And could demonstrate to a level. Some people say my demos are better than Roger, actually. So yeah, it's a joke. My demos are a joke. Yeah, yeah. But anyway, yeah, it's out there now. It's out there. I can yeah, I can back it up. But anyway, um all of that stuff just adds to credibility and and that's everything really.

SPEAKER_02 12:33

So you how how many years did it kind of get you to I'm just trying to map out that journey from starting fitness training to then now becoming Andy Murray's trainer? Yeah. How many years was that? Uh ten.

SPEAKER_00 12:46

That was ten years. Ten years of groundwork, yeah, long days, long nights, sleepless nights, um, making a lot of mistakes.

SPEAKER_02 12:55

And then so then when you actually ended up starting with Andy, did you were you doing it with Jez?

SPEAKER_00 13:00

Yes. For a while, yes. Yes. So Andy formed kind of Team Murray at the end of 2007. So it was myself, Jez, Miles McClagan, Louis was doing a bit with him at the time as well, Andy Ireland as the physio. He had a sports psych involved as well. Um how was that kind of going into a bigger team now? Yeah, I was terrified. Really? I was absolutely terrified to be perfectly honest. I remember I was sat with Mark Taylor and Mott Bender the night before I flew out to Miami for the first ever training block, and I was like, you know, and they were like, just be yourself, mate. Just be yourself, you know, it's all good, you'll be fine. Terrified. Yeah. Um Jez at this time. Me and Jez. And and when I look back, really, you know, one of the main reasons why I was there was for my soft skills and for how I was rather than what I knew. Um, I was in the team for how I was around Andy, around the team, yeah, my energy levels, my enthusiasm, my professionalism. Yes. Um, but it was all of those things, really. You know, of course, I had to be competent at the job. Yeah. Um, but Jez and I were kind of working, you know, very closely together. And again, to understand my role where Jez was leading it. Yeah. So to not kick the door in the back. So Jez was kind of putting the program together. Yeah, he was putting the program together and I was assisting. So, even that in itself, the soft skills of that role, of not to kick the door in and say, Oh, Jez, I think we should be doing these exercises. And Andy, I've got this great idea for a new exercise. Undermining Jez's program. You know, it's actually, no, no, come in, yeah, be humble, listen, learn, be passionate, enthusiastic, be a great team member, yeah, um, be professional, have high standards, um, but just know your role and stick to your role and do it well. Yeah. Um, and that and it it was it was just brilliant.

SPEAKER_02 14:56

Yeah, it was just brilliant. And you you touched on it there, and it's just while it's in my mind, I think it seems to be a bit of a theme across professional tennis that the fitness trainer always tends to have kind of the good, not good relationship, but uh a closer relationship sometimes with a player than anyone else on the team. Yeah. What I've noticed, not just yourself, but yeah, so those soft skills. Can you talk to us a little bit about that? What the you know, the importance of getting to know the player and getting their trust?

SPEAKER_00 15:19

Yeah, absolutely. Well, you spend a lot of time with the player away from the court. Very often the player will open up um, you know, about struggles on the court or struggles elsewhere. You know, you spend a lot of time away from the court with them. There's a lot of time in between sets of exercises, you know, where you're sort of sitting around chatting away. And there's actually a big responsibility on you to be um to be a a little bit of an advisor, slope stroke, counsellor kind of thing as well. You know, I find so much of my role isn't talking about sets and reps, it's talking about oh, you know, mum and dad or tough session on the court or I'm struggling with this in my game or whatever it is, you know, and um and how to manage those conversations and again not judging. So that would have been new for you at the time as well. Massively, massively, and and again, feel, which I think is huge in coaching, is feel for situations. I am feel, yes, exactly. Used to have feel around situations where do I go hard on them, do I just shut up and listen, do I say nothing? Yeah, um you know, and even actually when you're working with juniors, do I have a responsibility to tell someone else in authority about this? And I made again a bunch of mistakes on that. Yeah, I remember there was a kid at Loughborough, broke down in tears after the tennis session. Um so put my arm around him, had a chat with him. He was like, I don't want to play anymore, I don't want to play the sport anymore. And I was like, Okay, well, we'll just tell your dad.

SPEAKER_02 16:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:50

Um, so he's like, Well, okay, dad's picking me up in a minute. So I was like, okay, so we went and and sat in the kitchen, and he said, Dad, I don't want to play anymore. And I thought the dad would go, okay, son, so no, that's done. And the dad went, mental.

SPEAKER_02 17:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:04

Oh, we've remortgaged the house twice, da da da. And I was like, I'm there, like early 20s, yeah. No idea how to handle this situation whatsoever. Yeah. I've completely gone in at the deep end, you know. And luckily, um, Mark Taylor, who's very experienced coach, would walk past the kitchen, read the room, saw what was happening, came in, interjected, guys, let's just calm down, everything everything's gonna be fine, you know, get yourselves home, relax, have dinner, it's all good, we'll talk about it in the morning. And I was like, wow.

SPEAKER_01 17:31

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:31

And it's just one example of how important all those little conversations are, the power of what you say, yeah. You can really, you know, you can really help, yeah, and you can really cause.

SPEAKER_02 17:42

And how did you find that because we as I said with a team with Andy, there's a bigger team, and some of those conversations are you then like you and the coach, tennis coaches are in regular contact, obviously, about all those conversations that you're having away from the court.

SPEAKER_00 17:55

Yeah, and that's what I mean about being a good team member, yeah. Is that again, you can drop a little thing in that undermines what the coach has said on the court that, you know, to in order to be more popular with the player. Oh, yeah, I didn't quite agree with that.

SPEAKER_02 18:06

You know, which I've seen happen.

SPEAKER_00 18:07

Which this these little conversations happen badly everywhere.

SPEAKER_02 18:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:12

And they are the undermining and undoing of teams everywhere. Yes, yeah, I've seen it. And that's where we were brilliant in Team Murray, was that everybody, because the players will find the little gaps between team members very, you know, that that's just what they naturally do. Everybody had each other's back. And not in a we're right, you're wrong way, but just in a I would never undermine Miles to Andy. I would never undermine Jez's program, particularly if he was saying, Oh, I'm so tired, I can't do this, and Jez wasn't there, which he would have done, and Jez wasn't there. It's like, look, you know, this is what's on the programme, you know, I can I can chat with Jez about it, we can adjust it if you like, yeah, rather than going, oh, okay, Andy, I'll just change the program. And again, undermining what all those little moments are everywhere in a team, yeah. Uh, and having the right people with the right values, shared values, yeah, um, is absolutely critical to a successful team.

SPEAKER_02 19:08

Yeah, yeah. And and so you said you said you're kind of acting as the assistant under Jez. Yeah. How long was that for? Until Jez was.

SPEAKER_00 19:14

So that's the first uh that was the first sort of six years or so, I would say. Yeah. Um, and then Jez moved on, and so I probably started Andy's I took over the SNC probably around 2014. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 19:30

So six years, and just so everyone knows, in total, you're with him for 17 years. 17, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:35

Yeah, hence the ball patch. But um but yeah, so after after six years, you're the kind of head honchok. Yes, but actually, also my role in the team had started to shift a little bit because day one I was the joker, the energy in the room, and all that kind of stuff. Obviously, I've been with Andy six, seven years now. You know, I starting to know what he wants, likes, yeah, when he's happy, when he's sad, when to say something, when to say nothing. And and I was probably because tennis coaches had been and gone since that time, I was starting to become one of the more experienced members of the team, if not the most experienced member of the team, yeah, aside from Judy. Yeah, um, and so actually by then my role was a bit different, it was a little bit more um uh a place of stability for Andy, you know, a sort of um someone he could bounce things off and trust, yeah. Uh with new members coming in all of the time, in and out. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:28

So again, so how did you find that with the different coaches coming in?

SPEAKER_00 20:31

Yeah, tricky. Yeah, tricky. Um I guess they've got their own.

SPEAKER_02 20:36

They've got their own thing.

SPEAKER_00 20:37

They've got their own thing, and rightly so. They need to get their messages across. So it's it's to support that and support Andy through change. Yeah. Um, and be again, be stable, be a good teammate, be someone who's just solid in the corner, not throwing out opinions and being up and down, yeah, but but supporting everything and making sure, being almost like the glue that sticks things together, yeah, rather than an agitator. Yeah. It's like, okay, this is your new coach, right? Let's make it work, let's let's figure this out, you know. And so um, so I probably had more of that kind of a role for the next yeah ten odd years, really, rather than, and of course I was still doing the S and C side of things, yeah. But I th again I always think that those skills and those elements were probably more important than actually the writing of the sets and reps of the squats and the lunges and you know all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_02 21:28

People will remember Andy having uh kind of a really, really important pre-season, probably which is about you started actually, yeah. And he and he made a big physical change. He just became a from a kind of a skinny teenager to an absolute animal. Yeah. So could talk to us a little bit about those kind of pre seasons that helped him build up into one of the best athletes in the world.

SPEAKER_00 21:48

Yeah, brutal pre seasons. I mean, just prior to us he was with Brad Gilbert, yeah, and Brad really pushed the message of you've got to get stronger and fitter, mate. You know, Brad almost fought the battle in a way. For us, for then Andy to say, right, I want to get stronger and fitter. I need to employ a team of people. Right, yeah. So the actual message of becoming stronger and fitter, we never had to sell to him. Yeah. Um, and he committed, he was all in, and the program was brilliant, and he adapted to it because he's a good athlete. Yeah. Um, and I remember that one in Miami. Yeah, I mean, the Miami offseasons were brutally long, the days were very long. Uh, I can honestly say this it sounds like a cliche, but I can honestly say that in 17 years, Andy never skipped a rep, he never pulled out of a session, he never tanked in the SNC side like ever. And I remember your brother asked him towards the end, um, you know, would you reckon you've ever sort of skipped a gym session or anything? He said, honestly, I haven't tanked a single rep ever. Yeah, and and it's genuine that's true.

SPEAKER_02 22:51

Which it which is it which is for again for people to listen to, it's they don't realise how difficult that is over that long period of time.

SPEAKER_00 22:56

Well, and again, in life after Andy, I realise how spoilt we were in many respects for his willingness to go through through the pain barrier, yeah, through pain barrier, through ridiculous amounts of volume, you know, it's um and I have to be careful not to put that that blueprint onto everybody I work with because not everybody, in fact, probably nobody ever again will be able to deliver on that level of consistency with that mindset. I just I think he's a one-off.

SPEAKER_02 23:28

So actually again, looking back, I think it was 2008. Yeah, I was in Miami with you guys while he was doing a pre-season, yeah, and I just remember him like the food as well that was going into him. So like he was meticulous about what minute of the day he was having his 75th piece of sushi for the day. You talked a bit about that kind of bulk up period.

SPEAKER_00 23:46

Yeah, in some of those, so one of the off seasons we were trying to get six thousand calories a day in him, and actually, as much as I would love to think I could eat six thousand calories, it's actually really hard, it's really hard work eating that much food, yeah, you know, um, per day, every day for a month. It's mayhem, it's ridiculously hard. We were sort of pouring macadamia nuts down his throat as he was sort of walking into his bedroom, yeah, yeah. Um, and he did, he put on a lot of mass, yeah, uh, which was great, particularly from a you know, from a performance perspective, but also from a robustness and injury prevention perspective. Uh, I believe that's really important. The difficulty was maintaining it when he went into season, yeah. You know, is that you just can't keep eating that, obviously, when you're in and around the tournaments. So actually, he would start to sort of drop off a lot of that bulk that he had put on as the season went along. Yeah, but you hope he maintains the strength gains from that at least. Um, but but that it was it was not not easy.

SPEAKER_02 24:44

Okay, I remember I don't know what year it was, but he did the famous that was 2008 after our first block. Was that Richard Gasquet? Richard Gasquay on centre and he did the bicep thing. Yeah. Because at that moment, I remember that being huge photograph in the papers and everyone talking about his big bicep. That must have been a bit more focused then on you as a fitness trainer. Did you notice people then probably not appreciating your work but talking a bit more about the physical side?

SPEAKER_00 25:06

Yeah, I think that for Jez and I was a real sort of seminal moment, really. It was a real reward for all the work we'd done. It was Andy also announcing, I'm proud of the work I've done, yeah, and also announcing to the other players in the world, I'm now physically here. You know, I'm get I'm going to be a physical beast. I already am, but I'm going to be a physical beast in this sport. And he he really he really was. You know, um he like I say he committed fully and he gained a great I believe he gained a great deal of confidence in his game as a result of the work that he did. I think he got massive amounts of confidence, and I think when it came to the crunch in big matches, we all know what a ridiculous competitor the guy was. Yeah, amazing. Which which is 90% of it, but actually his belief in his own physicality, his trust in his body definitely fed into that belief that he had in his game and his competitive spirit. You know, you can be ridiculously fit and an awful competitor, and you will lose best of five set matches. But he was a ridiculous competitor, obviously a ridiculously good tennis player, but then also got in very, very good physical shape and had the belief in the physical work and the trust in us, which is massive. Um, that kind of perfect storm really resulted in that result against Gasque. That was massive.

SPEAKER_02 26:28

If you're enjoying these conversations, it really helps if you like the video and subscribe to the channel. It's the simplest way to support what we're building here and make sure more people who care about tennis beyond the headlines find it. New episodes are coming regularly with players, coaches, and people from inside the sport. This is Beyond Tennis, and I'm glad you're here. So you mentioned now kind of leading the team around about 2014, was it? Yeah. What's uh what what was the diff different challenges then he had to because you were then kind of the head fitness guy from 2014 until he retired in 24? Yeah. So that's 10 years of kind of running. What what he's already bulked up. What were the next challenges for him?

SPEAKER_00 27:09

Yeah, I think um small details, I suppose, trying to keep him fast and get trying to even faster, um, which you know is something, yeah. Um, but then you know, it then became make sure he's healthy, you know, make sure he's got mobility and flexibility and stability in his joints, all of those things really, about around robustness and and weeks being healthy, and and an ability to put up with the amount of training he did on the court as well. Um, and trying to be a bit more efficient around the training, so to include a lot of the conditioning stuff on the court during his tennis sessions and not necessarily need to do it always separately. Okay, yeah, yeah. You know, so be a bit more time efficient and and integrate things perhaps a little more to make his days a little shorter, yeah. Ideas like that, but particularly again from yeah, 2016 obviously was was the peak. But uh we'll go into that yet. Yeah, but then 2017 onwards, it was all about rehab, you know, mobility, robustness, being you know, in as little pain as possible. Pain free was never going to be a goal, but being as in as little pain as possible and managing those aspects were again a whole new world for me of discovery, yeah, because I hadn't taken a player all the way through to retirement, yeah, and all the different phases that that uh it entails as well, you know, again another learning curve for me, really. So his 17-year career is absolutely incredible, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 28:41

Ridiculous. But I wanted to ask a couple of people I told a couple of people that I was gonna be chatting with you, and I said, What's what's some good questions for for from the fitness point of view? A couple of people came back the same one of what what's the difference between a training week and these. I mean, Andy's was pretty much always getting to semi-finals or finals of Grand Slams. Yeah. So what was what was a kind of a typical day look like during a grand slam versus a training week?

SPEAKER_00 29:06

Yeah, I mean the volume of work we would do in a training week, uh, particularly you know when he was really in his pump, was was just outrageous. Like we talked about the Miami blocks. You know, he's he's on the physio couch at sort of 9 a.m. He's on there for a good 30 to 45 minutes. The physical warm-up is a good hour of work, of of stuff, activating muscles, mobility stuff, um, finishing with the you know some movement and speed stuff. That's every day. Can I jump in there? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:35

So j just for junior tennis players listening, yeah. He's done an hour and a half already before he he's or probably an hour and forty-five minutes before he's even hit a ball.

SPEAKER_00 29:45

Two hours really. So he he would meet two hours before tennis.

SPEAKER_02 29:50

Okay. That's that's to get himself physically ready. Get himself physically ready. So junior tennis players sometimes trying to get away with 10-minute warm ups.

SPEAKER_00 29:56

Yeah, quick bite of a sandwich and a quick quad stretch before they run out of the side. But he's doing two hours. So yeah, carry on. But I thought that was quite interesting. No, it is like this is how long the days were, you know, and then the tennis session would either be one three hour session or two two hour sessions, um, you know, with some with some with a break in between, another warm-up for the second session, and then a good, you know, 90 minutes to two hours of S C stuff after that, yeah, and then another hour at least with the physio in recovery. Um, so you're talking like the full like eight, nine hour days, yeah, every single day. You know, okay, you'd have half days here and there, you'd have days off here and there, so you know it wasn't seven days a week.

SPEAKER_02 30:33

So a three-hour tennis session is actually an eight, nine-hour day.

SPEAKER_00 30:36

Yeah, but uh but a three-hour tennis session with Ivan Lendell is also very, very different uh to other coaches as well. You know, um, you know, Ivan would want Andy in off seasons to do to play five sets in a session and be bringing in fresh people every two sets, you know. He'd want him out there for a four-hour session, yeah. Let's see if you can survive it in a way, yeah, you know, mentally and physically, you know, and that's all the pre-seasons. Yeah, that was pre-seasons, all of those things. And he's already walking onto the court fatigued from two weeks worth of versaclimbers, weightlifting, core, mobility, speed, med ball. He's already walking onto the court carrying that fatigue, and he's then delivering another three-hour session, another nine-hour day. Yeah, you know, and of course, you have to manage this stuff so you don't physically break people. Yeah, um, but a his capacity to absorb all of that was outrageous. Um and and just how robust he became as a result of that stuff, incredible.

SPEAKER_02 31:36

And then against the tournament, what is a tournament week? What does the fitness trainer look after? Yeah, what does his typical days look like? Yes, both days and match days.

SPEAKER_00 31:43

Yeah, so so match days again, so he's he's having his pre-match hit. Yeah. So again, you're getting there pretty early before the match. If it's a one o'clock start, you're probably you're probably on site by 9 30 10. Again, our hour with the physio mobilising and all that kind of stuff. Um, again, that kind of extended warm-up, really, to get him ready for that hit. So he's probably an hour and a half at least before he hits. Before he even does his warm-up hit. Yeah, yeah. And he was someone who liked to hit quite a lot before matches. He wanted to hit every shot and feel every shot. Yeah. Uh, and woe betide you if you missed any of those shots in the warm-up. Yeah. Um, so you know, that's you know, that's a good two, two and a half hours of stuff, really, before the actual match. Then straight in, big fueling, um, another treatment before the match, another warm-up before the match.

SPEAKER_02 32:34

And how long is that warm-up before the match normally?

SPEAKER_00 32:36

That was typically a bit a bit more of a sort of 20 to 30 minute, more of an activate run around, get you get your head in, particular exercises that he liked to do to feel sharp before he went out there, yeah, ball feeds, all that sort of stuff, which was quite quite funny in the Wimbledon 2013 final. Yeah. Um, because uh Novak's team got to the warm-up area first and basically just used the entire space. Oh no. So then I'm trying to warm Andy up in this tiny little corridor outside the gym at Wimby downstairs. The corridor's about two metres wide, probably at its widest point, plus you've got benches and stuff everywhere. I'm tight as a drum, obviously. So I'm trying to do these little ball feeds with him, and I'm fizzing the ball everywhere. Everywhere. I'm so tight, and I've got no room, and he's like, look at he looked at me, he's like, You're alright? And I was like, Yep, yeah, yeah, okay. Just fizzing balls everywhere. Um, so yeah, all those little ball feeds, um, that kind of stuff, and then and then yeah, send him out to see. And then after match, because people don't realise what goes on after. Yeah, well, I mean, a lot of the times we wouldn't leave Wimbledon until like midnight, one in the morning, because he'd be on third. Um, so after the match, yeah, big old, big old physio treatment, straight in the ice bath. He'd go straight in the ice bath after the match, protein shake, long physio treatment, press, C family, all that stuff back again the next day.

SPEAKER_02 34:04

The 2016 I wanted to talk to you such an incredible year for him. He won his second Wimbledon, won an Olympics, and then he became number one in the world. Now, knowing him a little bit, I know how much he was after that number one spot for many years. He'd been so close, he'd you know he was pretty much one of the best players in the world for a few years. Can you talk to us a little bit about I spoke to Jamie a little bit about it, but can you talk to us a little bit about that run at the end of the year to get to the number one?

SPEAKER_00 34:29

Oh, it's outrageous.

SPEAKER_02 34:30

I mean, he'd had And the physical demands that that was on him.

SPEAKER_00 34:33

Well, he had two 20 plus match winning streaks that year, which is incredible. He was 8,000 points behind Novak in March. Cheapers of that year. Outrageous to chase him down. That's mad, ridiculous. Um he'd done an unbelievably tough block in the summer as well, um at Rafa's place. So he'd kind of he was we were trying to set him up physically for a strong end to the year, yeah, and again fully committed. Um so yeah, he he he pushed, literally went to China, won everything, you know, came back to Europe, won everything. Yeah. And then obviously at the 02 that year in the Masters Finals, he had a three-hour match with Ranich in the semis. Yeah, remember? Yeah, which was ridiculous. Yeah. And then it's like, well, it's only Novak in the final tomorrow, you know. That's that's and that was to become number one in the world, yeah. Yeah, that was to solidify. He'd already kind of been number one in Paris, but it was to kind of own to you know to to to end the end of the year.

SPEAKER_02 35:31

End of the year, sorry, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:32

Yeah. Um, and actually he went out and really kind of dismantled Novak that that night, which was incredible. None of us were expected, we were all tight as drums. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:42

Um that's so that was uh that was the the last match of a 20-plus match winning streak. Exactly. Can you Jamie kind of talked about like kind of managing that day to day? Yeah. It was he said it was just madness, really, of just match sleep, match, sleep. There's not many. Talk to us a little bit about that, the physical side of it.

SPEAKER_00 35:58

Yeah, well, in many respects, my job was relatively easy there because you're in the rhythm of tournaments, you're in the rhythm of matches. You know, with someone who's that good, yeah, you've just got to keep them happy, try your best to keep them fresh, loose, motivated, yeah, um, not in ridiculous amounts of pain. Um, but because some when someone like an Andy gets on a mission, actually they're just driving the ship anyway, really. And and it's just for us to be make sure everything's stable around him as possible. Um but I also remember, you know, after he won, we walked back in the lockers, obviously we're all going bonkers. And I remember he sat down and Ivan said to him, Well done, good, good year. Um but next year everyone's gonna be after you, everyone's coming for you next year. So this offseason, yeah, we need to work you harder than ever before. You need to be ready to come out and push yourself harder than every before ever before because everyone's gonna be chasing you next year and you need to improve. You know, and so that's literally after the match after the match. Literally the first words he heard when he when he got into the locker room after that match, get ready to go again just physically killed himself for for a couple of months, for months, pretty much, you know. Um, and I just thought, wow, that's leadership, that is strength of leadership, that is values, yeah, that's who Yvonne was, yeah, just you know, a dominator of the sport, a legend of the sport. And again, if I'd said that to Andy, he'd be like, see him see him, mate. Jog on. Yeah, yeah. Uh Yvonne Lendell saying that to you, you know, is the power of that message.

SPEAKER_02 37:37

He is number one, wasn't he?

SPEAKER_00 37:38

Yeah. I'll never forget that moment when he said that to Andy because I was just I just thought, yeah, that's that's leadership, that is that's proper. Okay, but an incredible time, and uh and he really deserved it. I'm so glad he did it.

SPEAKER_02 37:52

I think all of us were so happy when he got to that point. Yeah, um and then kind of moving on towards the end of his career was obviously you're working with my brother for uh through through a lot of his injuries that that uh that he had to do a hip replacement. How difficult was those years?

SPEAKER_00 38:07

Yeah, particularly sort of 2017-2018, where he sort of hobbled off at Wimbledon against Query. Still made quarters on one leg, by the way. I remember, yeah. Outrageous. Um, but anyway, just we tried every type of rehab, every exercise. Yeah, the hip was smashed to pieces. You know, if you under a scanner, it looked like a 60-year-old's hip. Yeah, it just had a different pain threshold, didn't he? Yeah, he just went through it, yeah. You know, outrageous. Um we tried everything, we went to every expert, um you know, culminating in that press conference in Australia where he broke down. He was like, This just ain't happening. We'd already had a moment in the off season, actually, you know, where he was like, guys, this just isn't this isn't happening. He had a hit with I think Vadasco and Vadasco actually like almost put his arm around him at the end of the hit and was like, mate, you're like you're okay in his own sort of Spanish way. And I think that was just a bit of a moment of like this ain't happening, this isn't working. We're trying, we've tried everything, this isn't working.

SPEAKER_02 39:10

I think Jamie Jamie said that and he said, I don't think there's ever been an example of somebody being number one in the world and getting injured. You normally have a bit of a drop-off in level, yeah, and people kind of get a bit feel their mortality as they go through their career. But to have so in his mind, he was still the number one player in the world while he was injured for those two or three years. Yeah, how difficult was that talking about his soft skills? How yeah, how how are you able to deal with him during that time?

SPEAKER_00 39:37

It was brutal. Like we would go to work and spend all day trying to get one degree of extra range of motion out of the out of his hips, yeah. You know, we'd spend all day pushing, pulling, mobilizing, warming, trying to get one more degree of you know, and our mood and his mood would be based on whether we got that one degree extra or not on that given day. You know, and actually when we went to watch uh resurfacing with our families at the um at the premiere, you know, Phil Movie Theatre and stuff, which was pretty cool. But for our families to go and see that and actually realize what every what had been happening on a daily basis, yeah, I think was a real eye-opener for them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:24

Um but to to try and So for anyone go and watch that because it's on Amazon resurfacing an amazing documentary for it.

SPEAKER_00 40:31

Yeah. My stomach is in one of the first opening scenes, my gut is in one of the first scenes as we get lowered into this swimming pool. I remember I'm like, what? Why? Why? But anyway, um, but yeah, just that that that whole trying to be upbeat, trying to be positive, trying to be constructive, trying not to just feed him bluff because he'll pick it straight away. Um was yeah, I I I don't know how I obviously don't know how how we did it, to be perfectly honest. But then he obviously went for the went for the surgery. Before the surgery, you know, basically the prognosis is look, you this ain't happening, mate. This is you're not gonna play tennis. It's done. It's done. You know, give it, give it, give up the ghost. You know, I think one of the Brians had obviously come back with a resurfacing, but obviously was playing doubles, no disrespect to doubles, but different demands to physically to the singles. Uh, and we were like, look, mate, this is just not gonna happen. Let's you know, let's call it a day. We'll rehab you and then high five, see you later. Yeah, and then you see it in the documentary with literally he wakes up from the surgery and is like, right, it's Wimbledon's it's actually, you know, I need to get going because Wimbledon's only a few months' time, so I need to, you know. And we were all like, mate, you're joking, aren't you? You know, and they actually, you know, Liv who made the documentary said to him, So this whole time it's really been about playing again, isn't it? Yeah, and he was like, No, no, no, no, no, you know, because everyone at that time had been through a couple of years of stress. And he was like, Look, mate, give it up, it's time to time to um, you know, five months later he wins the doubles at Queens, nine months later, yeah, wins the title at Antwerp, beating Stan in three. Incredible, ridiculous, yeah. So we obviously thought, you know, career was over, you know, and then he goes and wins a tour event singles, and you watch how he actually moves in that match. Pretty good for a geezer with a metal hip. Yeah, anyway. So obviously, after the match, we're all like, I'm gonna party like it's 1999, mate. We thought this was over, yeah. And then he's like, Oh yeah, okay, yeah, whatever. So we go for dinner, he does his fantasy basketball draft at dinner, barely says a word to any of us on the phone on his fantasy basketball draft. He's got every player and their stats and all that on paper. I've got the photo, I took a picture of his legend, believe it. He's a legend, the guy. Barely said a word to us the whole of dinner. I was like, what is this? Yeah, yeah. And that's just he's just a different human being. Everything he does, he wants to do it the best, yeah. Absolutely nailed it, you know. And um, yeah, I mean that that as an achievement. Amazing. I don't I just don't know whether people really appreciate if you see Would you put that up there with some of his other achievements, yeah. Absolutely. I mean, of course, the magnitude of a lot of his biggest wins, of course. But not the story behind it. The actual suffering behind that win. I mean, if you see the pictures of what, you know, uh you know, a rear end looks like that's had that surgery on it, it's it's it's ugly stuff. Yeah, bruises, isn't it? Um and and in the and in the documentary they show the surgery, it's woodwork on the body, you know, it's soaring, yeah, malleting, you know, it's outrageous what's happened to his body. Yeah. Um so for him to come back and win a tour event, beating Stan Vavarinka in the final was amazing. Is uh yeah, I I just don't think that should ever be underestimated as an achievement. Because I just don't think no matter how well the advances in in surgery, you know, happen in the future. No one's ever going to do that again. I just don't think that's going to happen again. And if they do, that's too good. But it yeah, that that just gives you an insight into who Andy was, you know, what a special human being he is, but who he was as a player, as an athlete, as a competitor, incredible. Uh, and uh you know, as a worker outrageous.

SPEAKER_02 44:22

Uh well, yeah, fantastic. So your your your journey with Andy was amazing, but I want to talk a little bit more about yourself. Yeah. Davis Cup. That must have been so you were the kind of the Davis Cup fitness trainer for a number of years, right? Yeah, absolutely, yeah. How did you find kind of being the fitness trainer for a team over an individual?

SPEAKER_00 44:39

Yeah, I I loved it. Yeah, absolutely loved it. You were always one of the biggest supporters on the side, you'd always quite vocal on the side. Um, and again, that was one of the bigger reasons why I was there is character, personality, being willing to support enthusiastically, yeah, all of those skills, you know, helping to manage the bench, the energy of the bench, which is quite key. Yeah, yeah. Um, in some of those matches. 2015 when you when he won it. Was incredible. I mean, starting with Leon 2010, you know, that was his with him with his first tie, yeah. And he kind of set out with all the support staff, you know, the vision, yeah. Um, which was a well-prepared team on the journey to the back to the world group because we were on the verge of going into Euro Africa Zone 3. Remember, yeah. So we played Turkey in Eastbourne, yeah. That was our first tie together as a as a group. But honestly, Leon was incredible at pulling everyone together, having everyone on point, again, shared values, shared visions, shared goals, yeah, everyone doing their job, playing their part, playing their role, understanding their role. And so we went on that five-year kind of tear-up, really. Yeah, I think we won 10 out of something, 10 out of 15 matches, something like that. Um, you know, we beat France, Australia, USA on the way to the final, ridiculous matches, um, and just a part of that team and that bond was.

SPEAKER_02 46:01

I think that people don't get realise just a great job that Leon did creating that team environment in the Davis Cup. I had David Lloyd on last week, who was another Davis Cup captain, but I think Leon's job is a he was a was also a full-time job. David was talking about he was doing it part-time before then. But the the the the the team ethic that he built was incredible, really.

SPEAKER_00 46:22

Yeah, and and a good leader of people, yeah. You know, like you you made sure he made sure you were on point doing your job in every area, all the hundreds of details, even down to how the team room looks and what little gift the players get, you know, all of that stuff, how to look after the players, every detail he nailed, yeah. Um, but also just his ability to pull people together, motivate, have fun and enjoy it, pick the right characters and the right leaders in the right little areas, yeah. Um, was just sensational. You know, I was I'm so lucky to have been a part of of that group for those all those years. Never mind just the final.

SPEAKER_02 46:59

Great to have on your CV Davis Cup winner.

SPEAKER_00 47:01

Yeah, yeah, well absolutely. You know, um I yeah, I asked Leon if I could do the speech at the dinner, why not? Which is a bit cringe-inducing, but um I gave this speech about the about it not being an accident that we won. Yeah, because I'd done trips with Leon in juniors. Uh we went on Orange Bowl trip, took a bunch of kids, you know, with us. Yeah, we were doing ice baths with the kids, we were doing training sessions, hotel room sessions when it was raining, yeah. Like it was so on point, yeah, even back then. Yeah, and um, and so yeah, I was just like that, you know, this has been building really. And um, but anyway, yeah, I mean, obviously when we won, um, I don't know if you've seen the photo of when we won of the team bench. I probably have done, but remind us. We'll put it up, yeah. Put it up. It's basically the entire bench is up celebrating, and I'm basically sat there looking like I've lost my winning lottery ticket, basically. So the moment that lob landed in the courts, I'm just literally like that, just completely gone, basically, spent, completely spent because it's literally the last ball of a long season, yeah. Yeah, and actually, obviously, you know, all the players played their part, but Andy's obviously carrying a lot of weight on his shoulders in the months building up. It's unbelievably important to him to win it to everyone, yeah. But you know, he's carrying a lot of weight on his shoulders and being around him and supporting him, and I'm really not making this about myself at all, it's all about them, but but just being around that and having to be the energy and again that kind of glue and the stabiliser, soft skills, all of that stuff, you know, myself and Shane as well, uh the physio, you know, it was pretty demanding, yeah, especially when we won the doubles, and then actually, in some respects, the unspoken thing is it's done, it's over, yeah. And that happened in so many ties where we would win, we'd be one all on the Friday, we'd win the doubles, and then you know, there's this sort of feeling amongst everybody, no one's really saying it, but everyone's thinking it. Ha ha tap him, you know, he's got to beat Goffin on clay to win the thing. Yeah, and so again, you know, all of that stress gets dissipated amongst everyone around, but especially amongst the closest, yeah, you know, that you you can rely on to dissipate the stress.

SPEAKER_02 49:21

So one of the things that that I learned from Andy, actually, which I was running a junior academy for the last 10 years, and I tried to tell all the kids was I remember one of the times him him just never ever thinking a result was done. So he I remember remembering a go at me one time when I said, Oh, you've got this guy in a second round at Wimbledon, and he was like, I've got to play the first round, chart. But telling kids that is super important because you see all these kids going to junior tournaments going, I've got this guy in the semis, I've got this guy in the final, and then they never get to the semis or the final. Yeah. So it's about playing, and Andy, even at the top of the work game, was yeah, let's win the match in front of me.

SPEAKER_00 49:53

Well there's a few moments like that. So just before he goes out to sort of I don't know whether it was serve and they returned to win it, but at the last change of ends, the the sort of balmy army was singing, we're gonna win the cup like this. Yeah, and I was like, So I turn and I was like, shut up, you know, don't say that.

SPEAKER_01 50:11

And Andy was like, tell him, tell him.

SPEAKER_00 50:14

And I was like, oh you know, that was one, and then the other one was in 2016 at Wimbledon. So Novak is playing Milman on court one, yeah, it's day six of the tournament. Novak's playing Milman. He's two sets to love down overnight, yeah. Right, so everyone's obviously like, Well, Novak's out, yeah, it's Andy's to lose now. You know, you can imagine the narrative. Yes, yes, even if obviously as a team we ain't saying it, yeah, but he's feeling it already. So then during and during Andy's match against Milman, actually, sorry, it was Query that beat Novak. Query was two sets to love up, my mistake. He's playing Milman, and obviously they're flashing the score up on centre at the change of ends. Yeah, right. We can see the Query's winning the fourth set, the crowd starts buzzing, then mid-match, the cheer goes up from court one. Yeah, Novak's clearly lost. The centre court crowd start celebrating a pretty much midpoint, yeah. That Novak's out, the king is dead, you know? Yeah. And the stress on Andy then, the weight of expectation, mid-match. Yeah, that's tough. And he's looking at us and he's edgy, yeah, understandably. Yeah, yeah. Like, what's why is everyone, you know, what's you know, I'm sitting in the middle of a this guy who's pretty good, by the way. Yeah. And so that again, that moment, some of those moments where you could see this massive shift of pressure onto Andy. Yeah. And there'll be very few people in the history of sport that dealt with pressure better than he did. Yeah. But even so, the weight of it on him, you know. Oh, I can I can't even imagine. I can't even imagine, yeah. So the couple of those moments where it ain't over till it's over, and managing expectations of people around you, and managing expectations of press, family, your own expectations on yourself. Yeah. Um, yeah, he was a lightning rod for that stuff.

SPEAKER_02 52:16

And now you're with Katie Bolter. Katie Bolter.

SPEAKER_00 52:20

How's that going? It's going incredibly well. She is just a delight to work with, great human being, yeah. Always smiling, always pumped. Yeah. Um, very rarely has a bad day, uh, which is just lovely to be around and to work with. Uh, she she again she's bought into the message of what we're trying to work on. Yeah, uh, she's doing really well. This it's the clay court season currently, and she's um she never saw the clay as a strength at all. You know, she would kind of like if she gets a couple of matches, great. And actually, we were like, let's change the narrative around this. You can play on any surface. Yeah, you're a great athlete, you're a great ball striker. Why can't you be good? And so, actually, this clay court season, she's um she's starting to accumulate more and more wins, she's moving better on it, she's committing to the movement work and being strong in corners, and she's working with Michael Joyce, yeah, who has been brilliant. Yeah, um, his messages for years, nine years with Sheripova, he's been with Pagula, Azarenka, Bouchard, he's he's you know been right there at the top of the game, unbelievable. Um, and his messaging to her has been so brilliantly simple of you know, just commit to your patterns, don't overthink, just keep it simple. Um, just play, you know, you're good enough to play, a couple of little adjustments here and there. It is simple, isn't it? The guys give these tips. Yeah, you know, it's it's the simplest stuff that works. Surprise, surprise. Yeah, um, but also he played in the era which I just absolutely am obsessed with, which is the Agassiz era, the Sampras era, Connors and Mackin was coming into the end when he was playing. So he has stories about everyone who me and my friends just obsessed over and stayed up till two in the morning watching at US Open. And so I'm like, tell me about Andre. Yeah, I hit with him, I did some training weeks with him. Tell me all about you know, I'm like a kid, you know, I could sit all day and have stories with him.

SPEAKER_02 54:14

Well, that's I think what people don't realise probably why your career's gone so long in the fitness, is you have that obsession with tennis. Like it's it's if if you haven't been coming from a tennis background, you probably wouldn't have had the length of career that you've had in the in the game.

SPEAKER_00 54:26

No, and I I love watching matches you know where you know that my players aren't involved in. You know, I was watching Madrid last night, a ridiculous match with Trunguletti, and the crowd are going nuts, and I'm like getting my family like watch this, it's outrageous. Look at this guy, he's 36. You know, this is there's so many incredible stories that get thrown up every day in this sport. Yeah, um, and so you know, it's um yeah, it's a lifelong passion, and you know, it it's cheesy, but you know, it it it doesn't feel like work a lot of the time. Yeah. Um I'm incredibly, incredibly lucky.

SPEAKER_02 54:59

Matty, thanks so much for that. It's been great that's your beyond tennis chat. Loved it. You're not done yet, though. Got our match tie break. So these are the same questions that I give everyone. Don't think about it too much, but just give us the first thing that comes to mind. Okay. Question number one Who is the greatest tennis player of all time? Novak Djokovic. Novak Djokovic, yeah. You obviously spent quite a lot of time around Novak then over the years. What was so good about Novak?

SPEAKER_00 55:23

Um Or is so good, sorry. Well, just listening to the the other oh don't talk to them a lot, but just hearing the other three guys, all you know, no uh were Roger, Rafa, and Andy, all of them said Novak was the toughest to play. Did they? All of them no holes in his game, yeah, obviously ridiculous competitor, in unbelievable shape, can't hurt him, you know, and and I just think his the you know his clearly his record is outrageous. And so um 38 yeah 38, doing what he's doing, incredible stuff. Um so yeah, no fac on the men's side.

SPEAKER_02 55:59

Yeah. Um number two, this who is your favourite tennis player of all time? Agassiz. Agassiz, why?

SPEAKER_00 56:05

Uh just his game style, you know, shot making, just writ a joke. Well, in the 90s, he was the man. But then I bought the stupid shorts and the top, couldn't afford the trainers. Yeah, yeah. So went to woking tennis tournament in jean shorts, the top, and some Wilson Pro staff trainers. You were that guy. With an American bandana tied over the top. Right? I wish I'd seen that. Six all against my best mate in the first round, six love up in the first set tie break, choked, six-one, see you later, in the full Agassiz kit. As much of the Agassiz kit as I could afford. Class. That's brilliant.

SPEAKER_02 56:50

Going back, what was your favourite shot to hit? Uh I had a sorry, I'm gonna jump in here. I do remember you on a practice court with Andy once in front of a thousand people. Yes. What's your favourite shot to hit?

SPEAKER_00 57:06

Uh I love my oneie. Um, but when I was younger I had a pretty decent first serve, which never went in, but when it did, it was great.

SPEAKER_02 57:13

So your first serve was your favourite shot.

SPEAKER_00 57:15

Okay, cool.

SPEAKER_02 57:16

Um, slightly different one. Who's the best player not to win a grand slam in history?

SPEAKER_00 57:21

Yeah, I mean the obvious kind of you know, the Rios uh is the obvious, I suppose. I mean Zverev, if he you know, but obviously he can still do it. Yeah, I guess Rios probably is the one.

SPEAKER_02 57:35

Okay, Rios is very good. Yeah, that's been a very popular answer, that one. Okay, now you've been around tennis for a long time. Who's the best non-professional tennis player you've met or heard of? So that might be a celebrity or somebody that you've seen playing tennis that plays to a high level.

SPEAKER_00 57:49

That's a good question. Uh I did a bit of stuff with Hugh Hugh Grant. Hugh Grant, okay. Yeah. He's enthusiastic. Yeah. He's enthusiastic, hits the ball pretty well. Pretty well, club player level, I'd say. Yeah, yeah. Hugh Grant, good one.

SPEAKER_02 58:05

Hugh Grant. Hugh Grant, there you go. You look a bit like him as well.

SPEAKER_01 58:08

That'd be nice.

SPEAKER_02 58:09

And then finally, who is your dream doubles partner? MacInroe. Before we finish, we didn't touch much about your way of the tortoise. Yeah. So the way of the tortoises is your online performance programme. Talk to us a little bit about that. What is it?

SPEAKER_00 58:22

Yeah, so tortoiseperformance.com is so so I'm basically writing training programmes for tennis players of all ages, stages, levels, um, under 12, 13 plus, amateur adults, uh, and obviously pro players. Um, who I'm doing a lot, I still do lots of work with juniors, I still do lots of work with amateur adults, yeah. Uh, and just trying to get as much help out to people who want to improve, serious players who want to improve, um, particularly the the on-court movement side, but then like I like I talked about earlier, linking the gym-based stuff to the on-court movement stuff, which is all important, I think, rather than just doing training for training's sake and tennis stuff for tennis stuff, bringing the two together and trying to make sure that the two link and find their way onto the court side.

SPEAKER_02 59:08

Amazing opportunity for juniors, and I'm not saying this because you're sitting here, but for juniors to tap into the experiences that you've had. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:16

So lucky for people to kind of tap into what Andy Murray was doing and how it's a life's work basically on you know, into these training programs. It's everything I know, everything I've done, yeah, and have seen work with with really good players and some younger players and some players that are just super keen and super enthusiastic. Yeah. And so, you know, it's you know, 25 years of cutting my teeth and getting it right and getting it wrong, you know, it's now all distilled into some training programs on an app.

SPEAKER_02 59:44

So you're gonna be having a website come out soon?

SPEAKER_00 59:47

Yes, absolutely, yeah, on its way.

SPEAKER_02 59:48

So the name of it is the The Way of the Tortoise.

SPEAKER_00 59:50

So the yeah, the website's tortoiseperformance.com. Tortoise Performance. The book is The Way of the Tortoise, um, which I wrote a little bit. Yeah, that's on Amazon. Um, and that's not really about tennis, surprisingly, it's it's a book about kind of life, soft skills, how to be in certain situations, how to deal with certain stages in your career and your life, yeah. Um, and just things that I've picked up along the way, essentially. Because if I I think of like I've talked about, you know, in my opinion, it you know, the how to be is just as, if not more important than the how to do. Yes. And so actually, I I thought that isn't something we teach a lot in courses and coaching, coach ed and that kind of thing. And so I thought I'd put it all into a book and um get out there and buy it, everyone.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:38

There you go. Good. Well, thanks, Matt. Thanks for coming on to be on test. Good, good, it's been great, it's great to have you on. And tune in for the next episode. Make sure you like and subscribe to all of those things, helps the channel. See you for the next episode.